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Epic of Eden—Deborah: Interview with Sandra Richter

Epic of Eden—Deborah: Interview with Sandra Richter

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Seedbed is pleased to release Deborah: Unlikely Heroes and the Book of Judges (Epic of Eden). Read an interview with the author and video presenter, Sandra Richter, below.

Who was Deborah, and what makes her unique in the story of Israel’s exodus and settlement of its land?

Deborah is the fourth of twelve judges in the book of Judges. She is a bit of a Rockstar. Or as I say in the lectures, a crazy combination of Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Antiope (the “greatest warrior in the history of the Amazons”.) She is the only judge besides Samuel to also be given the title “prophet” and she leads Israel through one of its darkest and most divided eras for more than forty years. Her claim to fame in the book of Judges is the battle for the Jezreel Valley—one of the most strategic battles in the entire settlement period! And keeping in mind that Deborah is a woman in a completely patriarchal, patrilocal, and patrilineal society, she is every inch an “unlikely leader” as well. But her integrity and courage motivate the tribes of Israel to show up and fight for the Kingdom. And she wins!

The book of Judges can feel like such an alien and even unsettling work of literature to modern readers. What is your counsel for those willing to reconsider it and give it its rightful place in the Christian canon?

The book of Judges is indeed unsettling. Most people don’t read it much, and when they do, they are taken aback by how violent and dark it is. Historically it’s a time of transition. The Israelites are going from a generation spent as pastoral nomads under Moses’s stable leadership into a sedentary, agricultural life complicated by military conflict (aka the Canaanites), geographic isolation, and full-on exposure to the regional religion, the Baal cult of Canaan. Theologically it’s a time of compromise, where the siren song of “following after other gods” is constantly tugging at their souls and strong leadership is essential to survival. Anthropologically Israel is in that awkward space between tribal coalition and monarchy. The tribal groups live very separate lives, and it is not at all clear that the nation of Israel is going to survive.

In sum, the world of Israel in the book of Judges looks a lot like the “wild west” of the American frontier. And as we move through the cast of characters in this 12-cycle book (twelve crises; twelve judges to resolve those crises) we find that just like the “wild west,” some are clearly heroes (sword slingers and assassins), and some are a bit more ambiguous (reformed cowards, opportunists, and how exactly should we characterize Samson?!) But each one of these judges is used by God to protect and expand the Kingdom in an age of compromise. The hero of our study is Deborah. And there is no ambiguity there at all! She is the Margaret Thatcher of the ancient world—wife and mother, judge and prophet, commander-in-chief of Israel’s volunteer army. Her name means “to lead” and that is exactly what she does—for over forty years. I speak of her story as a “story that matters.” One given to us, the current people of God, to challenge us, strengthen us, and transform us.

How would you compare and contrast the time of the Judges with our modern place in history?

This is such an important question. How does the experience of God’s people in the book of Judges speak to us today? The first answer is that the book of Judges has been given to us specifically to speak to the Church. As Christopher J. H. Wright says it, the Old Testament was intended to serve as a paradigm. We are supposed to learn from it. And what we learn is that Israel’s settlement period, offered to us in the twelve cycles of the book of Judges, is a cycle that we the Church recognize. In the book of Judges, we find twelve repeated movements of God’s people in response to the challenges of faith. In each of these cycles the death of the judge results in the people slipping into complacency, complacency that leads to compromise, and compromise that eventually threatens the very existence of the Kingdom.

In this study I compare the cycle of the book of Judges to the life cycle of the Church. And to our dismay, we find a very similar cycle in the Church. Whereas a church/denomination/educational institution always launches with a revival, that leads to dramatic growth, the pressures of organization and bureaucratization too often lead to decline. And without the rebirth of revival, we find that death is likely the end of the story.

One of the things I point out in the video series is how the “decline” part happens when the people God stop risking for the Kingdom. When the discomfort of doing the hard thing, or being a “peculiar” people, or offering the sacrifice of true ministry just gets too hard. So, we start embracing comfort and popularity instead of the risks of real ministry. And comfort leads to decline and ultimately to assimilation. And before you know it, that same community birthed by the fires of revival starts looking just like the Canaanites. Or in the narrative of the book of Judges, worse than the Canaanites.

How does this study carry forward the approach you’ve developed in the Epic of Eden Bible study series?

I love this question! Everyone who knows me knows that I firmly believe the people of God deserve to be educated past “Being a Christian 101.” Over and over again as I speak across the country folks thank me for making the “deep dive” into the Bible accessible and understandable. My objective always is to re-animate the world of the biblical characters so that we can know them as real people, who lived in real places, and struggled with real faith. I so love that space. Gerhard von Rad speaks of this as the re-actualization of the mighty acts of God; Lawson Stone says it is that moment when the “very real past meets the very needy present.” I most simply speak of it as “making it mine”!

So as is typical of my studies we will put this great narrative back into real space and time—the hill country of ancient Israel during the settlement period. We’ll situate this “story that matters” in its literary context—the fourth cycle of the book of Judges. We’ll talk about the role of the judge and prophet, women in leadership, volunteer tribal armies, and the territorial conflicts of the Iron Age. There will be war horses and chariots, warlords and Canaanite mob bosses, tribal chieftains and the temperamental topography of the Jezreel Valley. Once again, the territory of the Kingdom is under threat. The people of God need a leader. Courage is required.

For church men and women who are eager to discover practical applications from the Bible, what would you say are some of the primary take-aways from engaging in this study?

Throughout this study, as we “re-actualize the mighty acts of God” in the narrative of Deborah I repeatedly ask the same three questions: (1) What territory can you see from where you’re standing that you know belongs to the Kingdom of God, but for whatever reason is not yet in the hands of the Kingdom of God? (2) Is it worth fighting for? (3) What are you going to do about it? The story of Deborah and Barak is the story of two faithful individuals who were challenged by circumstances beyond their strength and skill. They were enmeshed in a community of faith that was more inclined to assimilation than to obedience. But hearing the call of God, they said “yes.” And in their “yes” God was able to do the impossible. Coming to understand that the people of God face the same challenges in every generation, and that the answer is always to take God’s side against what seem to be impossible odds, well that is a very important ‘take-away.’

What would happen to our hearts, homes, churches, and cities if God’s people applied the lessons we need to learn from Deborah after engaging with this Epic of Eden resource?

If you and I were willing to apply the lessons of Deborah’s life to our own, we would break the cycle. We would interrupt the cycle of decline and death, compromise and assimilation that oh-so-seductively silences the message of the Kingdom in a broken world. If we learned to say “yes” despite the odds, trust our God when the task seems insurmountable, risk for the Kingdom . . . well, I anticipate our hearts and homes and churches and camps and seminaries would be reignited with awakening fire. And that is something I want to see.

Get Deborah: Unlikely Heroes and the Book of Judges (Epic of Eden) from our store here.

  • Small groups (each week includes a group discussion guide; DVD sold separately)
  • Groups looking to be challenged to understand the Bible in fresh ways
  • Wednesday night studies and/or Sunday school classes requiring approximately 90-minutes of meeting time

Illustrating the era of the Judges by means of the archaeological record, historical geography, and the hard facts of warfare in the ancient world, this study draws students immediately into the grand tale of Deborah and Barak, Jabin and Sisera, and of course the most unlikely of leaders, Jael. This study compels the modern reader to ask and answer three critical questions:

  • What territory can you see from where you’re standing that you know belongs to the Kingdom, but is not yet won?
  • Is it worth fighting for?
  • Are you willing to step out on faith and trust God for the victory?

Join the movement, get Epic of Eden: Deborah now.

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